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Chase Time Manipulation

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:56 am
by JohnGrimshaw
Something to discuss...

One of the key effects issues that is much discussed is a convenient way to manipulate time (the step length).

I have a few ideas about how this could be done, but I guess one of the key "issues" is the ability to define (and then interactively set) the BPM for each step of the chase.

So the "Rate" value (starting at 100%) in the effects system is very "un-ACM" - what does 100% actually really mean? It seems to do about 60steps in 15sec or 240 BPM. If we get LUA control over effects, it would be nice to have the ability to explicity set the BPM - then I could write a simple macro to alter it on the fly as required (including tapping out the beat, and applying the result)

However, the "Bump Chase" provides the best effects solution that allows for overlying effects on top of existing levels. To modify the speed of this again there is rate to deal with, but it looks to me like each step is 1sec - which makes a BPM of 60.

Then there is the added issue of the Bump ON time and OFF Times - neither of which are able to set by Macro.

I think that with a few "abilities" added via Lua, we could finally get chase controls that we need, but the key points are:
- being able to explicity get and set FX attributes before they are called, and while they are running, perhaps:
AttributeUpdateFX( 'sourceidentifier', 'source number', 'attributename', 'value')
AttributeGetFX( 'sourceidentifier', 'source number', 'attributename')

- making "Rate" values consistant, and able to be conformed to the real world values that this console is designed to promote
- the ability to set and modify "bump" attributes of looks - both in the command line, and via LUA. This is during recording and updating.

Re: Chase Time Manipulation

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:03 am
by RobertBell
JohnGrimshaw wrote:So the "Rate" value (starting at 100%) in the effects system is very "un-ACM" - what does 100% actually really mean? It seems to do about 60steps in 15sec or 240 BPM.
Maybe you've tripped across something, but to my knowledge RATE is multiplied by the Step Time. If each step has a Cue Time of 1s, then Rate of 100% is 60BPM (1 second each). 50% = 30BPM, 0% = no BPM. 200% = 120 BPM.

Unlike the Hog, once you take a Palette cue list and change it into a chase cue list, we still use the cue time. They Hog ignored it. This allows you to have step 1 and 2 at 1s and step 3 at 2 second and you get a syncopated chase still in 4:4 time at whatever BPM you want.

Also note - if Follow is not set, it assumes Follow After Fade. You can also set the Follows to 1,1 and 2 with Fade Times of 0 and then you really start to see the power of the chases.

Other points you raise are all valid. More Lua needed to alter what has been recorded. Plus a "Tap Sync" button assignment to set the Rate. Maybe a dual-edit-box that allows you to specify Rate in % or BPM. Also a clever method of holding down SELECT and rolling the wheel to set it on the fly.

Re: Chase Time Manipulation

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:39 pm
by golights
I always thought the rate soft key should have a + So a shift would put you into tap mode. Three taps on S1 to set tempo. Release of shift would show new rate, then adjustments to tap rate could be made if needed by S1 and wheel. This would get you close to where you want to be pretty fast.

Re: Chase Time Manipulation

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:22 pm
by gooze
Very good idea! I would go fot that option. For once the shifted function is intuitive!

Re: Chase Time Manipulation

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:47 pm
by JohnGrimshaw
RobertBell wrote:
Maybe you've tripped across something, but to my knowledge RATE is multiplied by the Step Time. If each step has a Cue Time of 1s, then Rate of 100% is 60BPM (1 second each). 50% = 30BPM, 0% = no BPM. 200% = 120 BPM.
All I did was:
1) New Show
2) Select Ch1 through 60
3) [S10 - Effect]
4) Square Wave Wrap

Time does not seem to affect the step speed.

I am looking forward to Bobby's Tutorial on Effects, because I expect to leaarn heaps through that process (I have not got a complete understanding of this animal).

Thinking about it, I would like a "dwell" attribute that is linked to the Rate (or BPM):
- Rate at zero and you can manually tap the chase steps on the dwell attribute
- Shift+Tap to "tap out" the Rythym, this would set dwell and Rate.

Re: Chase Time Manipulation

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:38 pm
by RobertBell
JohnGrimshaw wrote: All I did was:
1) New Show
2) Select Ch1 through 60
3) [S10 - Effect]
4) Square Wave Wrap
Ah ha! - That is not as your thread topic text says (Chase Time Manipulation). That is an FX - not a chase. All that I said above is true for Cue List Chases (Cue List Properties|Cue List Type = Chase x)

The 100% here applies to the number of inner steps of the FX. For instance, BLOCK WRAP or BLOCK MOVE uses 4 fixtures for one cycle (8 would be 2 cycles so an FX on fixtures 1 thru 8 at 100% would take exactly 2 seconds). See the x/y values in the Running FX window. The last number is how many times through the FX for ALL the fixtures - it will continually count up.

Sine FXs are different. They are based on 5 fixtures. So a Sine FX across 10 fixtures would take 2 seconds. This (as you said) does seem arbitrary.

Re: Chase Time Manipulation

Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:23 am
by gooze
But still... tap the shifted rate softkey to change the rate would be a great addition. For both effects and chases.
Ehm... why the difference? Create new int. effect->bump chase???

Re: Chase Time Manipulation

Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:20 am
by RobertBell
Chases are a succession of steps (cue list chases' use cues as steps and bump chases use looks as steps). Effects are based on mathematical functions (square waves, sine waves etc.)

Double tapping on the RATE softkey opens the large popup (like Pan etc.). Shift Double Tap opens up FX choices on that attribute, granted, we don't add FXs to FXs' rates. This might be very confusing. I think we need a better method for Tap Sync.

Re: Chase Time Manipulation

Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:07 pm
by TaineGilliam
Actually I can see someone making the argument that the Tap Sync via Shift-Rate is kinda like the adding of the effect tot the attribute. We are after all effecting the rate (or was that affecting...?).

It does seem like a nice place to add without requiring a "new" interface.

Taine