V10 Mousetraps...

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KarelBartak
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V10 Mousetraps...

Post by KarelBartak » Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:12 am

Yesterday I was training some customer with his new Classic Palette (Preset Palette) and I get myself to few mousetraps. They are not real bugs, but they are not making live easier...
Console is setted to One Digit entry and GeniusPro 500 personality and Cue only mode. Default record mode is LIVE. Software was 10.0.1

- I was unable to push console to fade out manually added levels in Live with next cue fired
- It is not clear when command Look XX Record record like Rec-Sub and when it is "normal" record. I am not sure, but it looks like setting in Record window for Cues is involved (window that appears using Shift Record)
- When you are in Live and Looks, you can't use Shift Record, Shift Update commands. You can use them only when you are Live Cue
- It is not clean when update will update all Live levels to Look and when it will update only existing levels in Look (missing soft keys add-all and Channels In, presented in 500 series)
- Macro keys are missing. It would be nice to be able to use them by some trick for firing macros (Shift M1 or CTRL M1)
- Missing "Cue list controll buttons"
- When people would like use "traditional effects" using cuelists, Random selection of "steps" is missing.
- For control more cuelists it would be handy to be able to stop them all by one command (from main list on X1 I fire/stop some effects using macros (CueListGo/CueListRelease) and when I must go back in cuelist before cue with stop macro is reached, "Effect Cuelist" is still running. Just let Goto Cue 0 stop all lists or something like that.
- blind editing Looks is little different to blind editing cues. Once I enter to blind, select look, make changes and push Update, changes are done and saved, but I don't see that look on screen. With Cues it is more "logical", I must confirm changes and then it stay on screen.
- When I patched more channels than authorized, levels for channels above were not fading, but jumping to saved intensity.
- During import of .ssf files from GSX I get console "froze" I import first show, save it as palette show, then try to import second show and get message I must restart software before importing next .ssf, but at this point I was unable to close and start again palette properly. I must use taskman (Ctrl+Shift+ESC) to logout and login again to get Palette working again.

Karel

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RobertBell
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Re: V10 Mousetraps...

Post by RobertBell » Wed Feb 27, 2008 1:12 pm

KarelBartak wrote:I was unable to push console to fade out manually added levels in Live with next cue fired
You need to uncheck Hardware Setup|Console|Hold Delta Levels
It is not clear when command Look XX Record record like Rec-Sub and when it is "normal" record. I am not sure, but it looks like setting in Record window for Cues is involved (window that appears using Shift Record)
SHIFT REC is different than the 500. 500 Shift Rec was Rec Minus Subs. If you are in Genius Pro, Light Palette 500 series, Classic Palette Euro or Classic Palette US, all operations go to the command line and SHIFT + Operation opens the dialog box. If you are using Palette Windows UI, it's the opposite. In the Record dialog boxes, [S8] is Record Minus Subs. On the command line, [S4] is either Use Subs or Minus Subs, depending on the last operation (it is sticky - see the status area for which is being used + or -Subs)

When you are in Live and Looks, you can't use Shift Record, Shift Update commands. You can use them only when you are Live Cue
Live Looks means you are looking at cues. I prefer to examine looks in blind (setting the look display to Live or Blind is sticky within the session). Remember, you can always LOAD a LOOK Live, and the changes you make will be present with one press of UPDT. Check what is loaded in the Status area.
It is not clean when update will update all Live levels to Look and when it will update only existing levels in Look (missing soft keys add-all and Channels In, presented in 500 series)
Agreed it is not clear if you're coming from 500 land. If something is loaded (see status area), that entity is updated with one press of UPDT. If you press UPDT UPDT or UDPT ENTER, the current cue is updated with any delta values. Update will never pull in sub values. If you do a leading channel list then UPDT, those LIVE values and all their attributes (unless you filter) are put in the destination.
Macro keys are missing. It would be nice to be able to use them by some trick for firing macros (Shift M1 or CTRL M1)
Eventually they will be SHIFT+1 and SHIFT+9
Missing "Cue list controll buttons"
You must use the Palette Windows UI to see these.
When people would like use "traditional effects" using cuelists, Random selection of "steps" is missing.
Write your steps in another cue list, then go to the main cue list and select the lights you want (does not have to be everything in the fx source cue list BTW), then put a CHASE FX on them. One of the Chase paramaters is order. You can chose Forward, Backwards, Bounce or Random. Works a trick. Lots of other paramaters to play with too.
For control more cuelists it would be handy to be able to stop them all by one command (from main list on X1 I fire/stop some effects using macros (CueListGo/CueListRelease) and when I must go back in cuelist before cue with stop macro is reached, "Effect Cuelist" is still running. Just let Goto Cue 0 stop all lists or something like that.
I think you are right that there should be wild cards in the macros, like CueListHalt("*")
blind editing Looks is little different to blind editing cues. Once I enter to blind, select look, make changes and push Update, changes are done and saved, but I don't see that look on screen. With Cues it is more "logical", I must confirm changes and then it stay on screen.
:added: FS510
When I patched more channels than authorized, levels for channels above were not fading, but jumping to saved intensity.
Right - that is our protection.
During import of .ssf files from GSX I get console "froze" I import first show, save it as palette show, then try to import second show and get message I must restart software before importing next .ssf, but at this point I was unable to close and start again palette properly. I must use taskman (Ctrl+Shift+ESC) to logout and login again to get Palette working again.
We've heard this. Can you please e-mail the SSF to support@horizoncontrol.com with a description of how to create the crash.

Thanx
Robert Bell - Product Manager - Horizon Control Inc.

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KarelBartak
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Re: V10 Mousetraps...

Post by KarelBartak » Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:27 pm

RobertBell wrote:
KarelBartak wrote:I was unable to push console to fade out manually added levels in Live with next cue fired
You need to uncheck Hardware Setup|Console|Hold Delta Levels
I am not 100% sure, but I think I tried it, but this setting had no efect. I will try again.
It is not clear when command Look XX Record record like Rec-Sub and when it is "normal" record. I am not sure, but it looks like setting in Record window for Cues is involved (window that appears using Shift Record)
RobertBell wrote:SHIFT REC is different than the 500. 500 Shift Rec was Rec Minus Subs. If you are in Genius Pro, Light Palette 500 series, Classic Palette Euro or Classic Palette US, all operations go to the command line and SHIFT + Operation opens the dialog box. If you are using Palette Windows UI, it's the opposite. In the Record dialog boxes, [S8] is Record Minus Subs. On the command line, [S4] is either Use Subs or Minus Subs, depending on the last operation (it is sticky - see the status area for which is being used + or -Subs)
I think it will be more logical and easier to underestand to leave Look XX Record to rec all and just keep S4 to be all the time ready to act as Rec-Sub (With same description).
When you are in Live and Looks, you can't use Shift Record, Shift Update commands. You can use them only when you are Live Cue
RobertBell wrote:Live Looks means you are looking at cues. I prefer to examine looks in blind (setting the look display to Live or Blind is sticky within the session). Remember, you can always LOAD a LOOK Live, and the changes you make will be present with one press of UPDT. Check what is loaded in the Status area.
My concern was in updating edited looks. Just adjust few look and then update them... Here it was not so clean... So I was in Live not blind, adjust few levels and try our magic dialog box Shift Update, but since I was Live Looks it does not work. What difference should be between working Live on Looks and on Cues
It is not clean when update will update all Live levels to Look and when it will update only existing levels in Look (missing soft keys add-all and Channels In, presented in 500 series)
RobertBell wrote:Agreed it is not clear if you're coming from 500 land. If something is loaded (see status area), that entity is updated with one press of UPDT. If you press UPDT UPDT or UDPT ENTER, the current cue is updated with any delta values. Update will never pull in sub values. If you do a leading channel list then UPDT, those LIVE values and all their attributes (unless you filter) are put in the destination.
My small problem with update is the same story like las time. Working live on Looks. Just adjust and update. Dialog box with shift works fine, but I was unable to push console to sense what is from what look. Result was simly same looks with "Live" levels all together...
Macro keys are missing. It would be nice to be able to use them by some trick for firing macros (Shift M1 or CTRL M1)
Eventually they will be SHIFT+1 and SHIFT+9

My curent problem for macros is with one TV. Customer asked to get somehow console as close to 500 as possible and with imposibility of use effects on looks I must set for them macros for controling cuelists... You can underestand I can not upgrade them to V10 (but I need, because of other features...)
Missing "Cue list controll buttons"
RobertBell wrote:You must use the Palette Windows UI to see these.
Fine, but how can be then other Cue lists smoothly operated when you are in GeniusPro? Why not to keep it? BTW same story here for my TV client...
When people would like use "traditional effects" using cuelists, Random selection of "steps" is missing.
RobertBell wrote:Write your steps in another cue list, then go to the main cue list and select the lights you want (does not have to be everything in the fx source cue list BTW), then put a CHASE FX on them. One of the Chase paramaters is order. You can chose Forward, Backwards, Bounce or Random. Works a trick. Lots of other paramaters to play with too.
Well but my users are nightmare. They don't use cues but Looks only. Cues they accept as replacement of old style FX. when I will try to push them to use efects they will ask for FXs with 3 fixtures in first stem 5 in second and one in third... They will complain to loosing effects (because they can't record them Live, and they will instantly forget to change rec mode). I am trying to get them as close as possible with tweeking new console to old way. I know it is not best, but try to learn some completly new way of thinkig someone who is 50+, speaking not English (nor underestand), bit lazy and poorly paid for his work.
For control more cuelists it would be handy to be able to stop them all by one command (from main list on X1 I fire/stop some effects using macros (CueListGo/CueListRelease) and when I must go back in cuelist before cue with stop macro is reached, "Effect Cuelist" is still running. Just let Goto Cue 0 stop all lists or something like that.
RobertBell wrote:I think you are right that there should be wild cards in the macros, like CueListHalt("*")
blind editing Looks is little different to blind editing cues. Once I enter to blind, select look, make changes and push Update, changes are done and saved, but I don't see that look on screen. With Cues it is more "logical", I must confirm changes and then it stay on screen.
:added: FS510
When I patched more channels than authorized, levels for channels above were not fading, but jumping to saved intensity.
Right - that is our protection.
During import of .ssf files from GSX I get console "froze" I import first show, save it as palette show, then try to import second show and get message I must restart software before importing next .ssf, but at this point I was unable to close and start again palette properly. I must use taskman (Ctrl+Shift+ESC) to logout and login again to get Palette working again.
RobertBell wrote:We've heard this. Can you please e-mail the SSF to support@horizoncontrol.com with a description of how to create the crash.
I will try to get that show. I don't have it, but hope they will be able to send it to me...

Thanx[/quote][/quote]

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Re: V10 Mousetraps...

Post by KarelBartak » Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:36 pm

Just a short note why I spoke about some issues in my message. I need to learn "simple" people with console and keep them away from too complicated functions. They need to live with what they know and operate console quickly. As well they in their job description often must fix heating system, make light design, fix non-working toilet, maintain luminaries and lot of other. One common thin for all of them I fight with is, they don't look on screen. Or if they look there, they can't read small characters. That is reason why I asked for such function like Update Channels In/Add all Look 1 Just to leave them to make some easy syntaxes and then follow (without much thinking) their "cook book" forever. It they are in troubles, they just call me.

For example chief of lighting in one TV call me 6-10 times per year with question: "How can I save my show on 520?" So I explain it to him every time again and again. And he is one from "better". More worse is phone call that begin "My console don't work, what can I do?".... I assume John Grimshaw understand me well.

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Re: V10 Mousetraps...

Post by gooze » Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:07 pm

:D
Don't we all get phonecalls like that?
Floriaan Ganzevoort - Lighting designer
THEATERMACHINE design. production. operations.

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Re: V10 Mousetraps...

Post by JohnGrimshaw » Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:09 pm

Yep, I certainly get those calls. ;)

On a recent trip to show a new client through their console (television studio), I turned the full 2hr theatrical training session into a 30min "this is all you need" one. There are a heap of buttons they will never need, and I know that anybody that really does not fully understand a device will develop "odd" habits when they operate over time.

I think it will be very interesting what the phone calls in 12months will ask for.

The first Palette I sold in Australia is a client from just before my time in this job - and I am sure he is still running 3.4.0. Can't wait for that conversation !
...and for more entertainment industry trivia and useless facts, just ask:
John Grimshaw
Managing Director
Stage Fast Pty Ltd

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Re: V10 Mousetraps...

Post by KarelBartak » Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:41 am

Nice to hear it. But in such case, I assume it would be good to make for this type of users some easy to understand way with simple syntaxes. I know it is bit time consuming, but I don't like guess "quantity" of this type of users. Unfortunately in my country it would be more than 50%. I don't like ask something complicated,but to care about this group of customers too...

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Re: V10 Mousetraps...

Post by RobertBell » Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:10 am

My thought was this is why we did the Palette Windows UI personality. Using it, you CAN'T get the syntax wrong.
Robert Bell - Product Manager - Horizon Control Inc.

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Re: V10 Mousetraps...

Post by KarelBartak » Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:09 am

Robert it is a good idea, BUT...
We are talking (in my case) with people who really dislike dialog boxes. Who don't understand English and who fight with mouse. People who looks at screen only when they need to see levels of channels. For my users is best to have fixed syntax on command line and let them use mouse to adjust levels. I have heard from several of them a lot of positive about bigger numbers for channels in V10.
I don't like to do so, but I really call for something like "Easy Palette" for "slower operators"...

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