Missing syntax, Hold delta not working

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KarelBartak
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Missing syntax, Hold delta not working

Post by KarelBartak » Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:47 am

I was yesterday training my users and I found one "missing" syntax. To delete look I can use Look XX Delete or Delete Look XX Enter. But for range you can use only Delete Look XX Thru YY, not vice versa.

I have cues recorded as Live. Console is in Genius Pro 500 series mode, in Cues only, with Hold delta levels disabled. When I put some channels in and fire cues channels stays there. If I, in blind, update cues with 0 levels (by setting level little above 0, back to 0 and Update), then Live level is correctly fading out. Is this bug or feature. If it is intentional, please explain me why it is done so. In such case it looks like Hold Delta does not work at all in this mode...

Tested on 10.0.1 CP and 10.1.3 OLE

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gooze
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Re: Missing syntax, Hold delta not working

Post by gooze » Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:53 am

It works only on levels that are stored in the upcoming cue. Otherwise the channels stays at the level you changed it to, until it is told to do something else.
The only way to solve it would be to block your whole cuelist.

Rob Halliday explained as follows:
RobHalliday wrote:On the actual point:

you're in cue 1
channel 1 is at 50%

in cue 2, channel 1 is TRACKING at 50% (no instruction in the cue)

you manually adjust channel 1 to 60%

You press 'GO' to run cue 2.

Channel 1 should ABSOLUTELY STILL BE AT 60% on a tracking console.

If you do GOTO CUE 2 or CUE 2 GO, it will run back to 50%. If you re-load cue 2 then press GO, it will run back to 50%.

The 'RELOAD' command on a 500-series - shift-LOAD - was added so that you could make a decision about whether channels would get sent back to their 'correct' cue levels when you pressed go (without having to look-up then re-enter the cue number - my short term memory thing again). I don't know if that function has made it into the Palette, but if not it should (it is NOT the same as shift-GO, though ultimately it has the same effect, because shift-GO is a 'cue go point' decision, whereas SHIFT-LOAD is a decision you can make calmly in the quiet moment between cues).

It would be UNBEARABLE to have to go back to the situation where you moved a moving light because the actor was standing in the wrong place and it went back to its old position every time you hit GO (-you don't want to update because hopefully the actor will be back in the right place tomorrow; you don't want to hold because somewhere in the cue sequence it IS supposed to move).

cc-auto-hold on a 500 was invented, I suspect, largely to give 'tracking off' operators the ability to do exactly this, though of course it failed at the point where the light was actually meant to move.

Rob.
Floriaan Ganzevoort - Lighting designer
THEATERMACHINE design. production. operations.

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RobertBell
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Re: Missing syntax, Hold delta not working

Post by RobertBell » Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:35 am

KarelBartak wrote:I was yesterday training my users and I found one "missing" syntax. To delete look I can use Look XX Delete or Delete Look XX Enter. But for range you can use only Delete Look XX Thru YY, not vice versa.
:added: FS544
Robert Bell - Product Manager - Horizon Control Inc.

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KarelBartak
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Re: Missing syntax, Hold delta not working

Post by KarelBartak » Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:12 am

I understand to description for moving lights. But my problem are customers. None of them did ever heard about tracking and I wilt NOT push them to learn about or start using it, it is too complex for them. Majority of them don't have moving lights and probably will have them not in near future. They are not console operators but "all technical work" persons, so console is about 10% of their whole work.
Because of this I hoped Hold delta will do in mode we use what I need to do and console in "500 mode" will act as 500. Is there any function that is affected by Hold delta in this mode? Is that so hard to let it work how it was working all the time in past, at least for channels? I know what I am asking about, but this particular use was really practical. When someone step on wrong place and I need put more lights on I can and later when I fire cue, I don't need to care about because they will fade out. Mostly this will do exactly what I need. Some customers with CP in 3.4.15 are working EXACTLY like that. If I will give them 10.x.x this will be their big complain.
From the name of parameter Hold delta, it leads to what it should do. When ON it should act like it is acting, leave the delta there. If it is not selected, channels should simply fade out like they were before.
If I block whole Cue List the 0 appears in cues and on live screen too. I can live with them but I feel this way to solve our "problem" will raise big complain from customers. I must say even Johns customers are sometimes faster and "more clever" than some of my.

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Re: Missing syntax, Hold delta not working

Post by gooze » Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:09 am

Thank you Karel! I had the same discussion some months ago. This is the European way of working. I sort of gave up on this point, because I am working with moving lights all the time now, and there are a lot of advantages of the tracking system. So I switched to tracking completely.
I agree that there is some work to do for the old, conventional Strand user (not at all used in a negative way!)

There should be a user mode that is real GeniusPro (the current GeniusPro is actually the old 500-series LightPalette, but that is too confusing...)
- Always block entire cuelist
- No zero values showing for blocked cues
- Get rid of the lines between cues
Floriaan Ganzevoort - Lighting designer
THEATERMACHINE design. production. operations.

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KarelBartak
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Re: Missing syntax, Hold delta not working

Post by KarelBartak » Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:30 am

Gooze you really make short summary of what 500 GeniusPro should do. As far as we have it, is should be working like labeled. I totally agree with advantages of Tracking, but if you are not using moving lights (or using them as minority) in that case it is bit hard to learn and keep in mind. Specially if you were working like that for years and you are 55 years old or more. And that is typical user we have here. That is why I fight for changes. I assume lot of people in whole Europe will appriciate it. It is not easy to change "traditional" way of working to new one since you are not young like most of us are.

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Re: Missing syntax, Hold delta not working

Post by RobHalliday » Fri Mar 07, 2008 2:34 pm

What it sounds like you actually need/want is proper, good, old-fashioned 'tracking off' mode from the 500-series.

Since I know 90+% of consoles in the UK are used in this mode 90+% of the time, I do agree with you and have made the same point before. There was a lot of discussion about this subject with Alan Martello at the time, but it seems it hasn't gone any further in the move to v10.

It probably should. There is, as far as I can tell, no console on the market that can be operated in this manner, and a LOT of people in the market who WANT a console that can be operated in this manner.

Rob.

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