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Comments from a console on Tour

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:29 am
by JohnGrimshaw
We have quite a large number of Palette consoles in Australia, and the number is growing. As a part of this process, I have been encouraging users and touring shows to either use this website to give feedback, or give me the feedback so that I can either answer the problems directly, or pass the issues back up the tree. So, hear are a collection of comments and problems from v 10.3.1:

Goto Syntax Problems
You are in Cue 10, and you decide to go back to a previous cue. Typing "[Cue] 9 [Goto]" leaves aspects of Cue 10 still active. Typing "[Goto] 9 [Enter]" works as expected. (same thing happens in the latest BETA version 10.3.41)

Release, release, release

It seems that the design of this console forces you to hit [Release] a whole lot!

For people coming from the 300/500, when levels are changed on the fly during a show (and not recorded), hitting the [Go] button would re-assert control over the "captured" channels, resuming the show with plotted levels. This does not happen on the Palette. The only "elegant" way to release fixtures in time is to use the hidden feature to set the Cue faders to control the assert/release times. A bit too clumsy. SUGGESTION: There should be a way to "release selected fixtures" or "release ALL fixtures " in time, and/or with a [Go]. Perhaps with "Selected Fixtures" M-Keys?
- Make M5 "Release Selected with next [Go]", and M6 "Release Deltas with next [Go]. Hit either one and it applies to the currently selected cue list. After then, any time fixtures are selected/altered, that button flashes to warn the user they will be released with a [Go]. STICKY FUNCTION - stays active for that session.
- Make M7 "Release Selected in Time", and M8 "Release Deltas in Time"

Looks being temperamental
There were times when the sub fader had to be moved several times before it would take control. No specific known way to replicate the problem.

1 to 1 Patch
Does not behave as expected in v10.3.1 (much better in 10.3.41). SUGGESTION: If patching fixtures 1 to 300, and 101 to 300 does not exist, it should CREATE those fixtures.

Look Functions in Blind
There are known issues with this in 10.3.1 that are now fixed in 10.3.41, but one specific issue still remains. If a look is changed in BLIND while a sub is active, currently the new values are asserted the instant the sub handle is moved. SUGGESTION: Blind changes should be applied AFTER the sub is next at 0%.

Inhibitive looks
With the 300/500 series, when a submaster was an INHIBIT sub, it took precedence over (nearly?) everything. The default in the Palette has an INHIBIT only affecting the Cue Lists. In order to achieve the 300/500 type of control with the Palette, you have to set the "priority" of the sub to a low number. SUGGESTION: Default the column "priority" to be visible in the Looks pages, and when a Look is set to Inhibit, the priority is changed to 10, and a note is shown in the STATUS window to explain this change.

Odd Behavior - Labels
Here is a weird one for you. Labeled channels 1 thru 5 as "FOH". Came back after lunch, and the labels moved to become 9-15.

REM Dim
A little awkward - an extra keystroke to get this function to operate as for the 300/500 series.

Help Menu needs work
Not all [Help]+ [Button] variations seem to work, and the Help Menu is well out of date (I know this is largely fixed in the coming release. The 10.3.41 Beta has huge changes to this area)

Re: Comments from a console on Tour

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:10 am
by gooze
Hi John,

I do agree with you on most topics. However I would like to comment on a few:
JohnGrimshaw wrote:SUGGESTION: There should be a way to "release selected fixtures" or "release ALL fixtures " in time, and/or with a [Go]. Perhaps with "Selected Fixtures" M-Keys?
- Make M5 "Release Selected with next [Go]", and M6 "Release Deltas with next [Go]. Hit either one and it applies to the currently selected cue list. After then, any time fixtures are selected/altered, that button flashes to warn the user they will be released with a [Go]. STICKY FUNCTION - stays active for that session.
- Make M7 "Release Selected in Time", and M8 "Release Deltas in Time"
This is something I have been asking for. I think it should be as simple as possible. So maybe a setup option. Or a cuelist option.
The 300 way is more likely: The adjusted channels always release with the next go, unless you press hold. I am ok with this as an option in the setup but I don't want to type it every time I want it (which is evrytime) even if it is sticky.
JohnGrimshaw wrote:1 to 1 Patch
Does not behave as expected in v10.3.1 (much better in 10.3.41). SUGGESTION: If patching fixtures 1 to 300, and 101 to 300 does not exist, it should CREATE those fixtures.
You should create fixtures yourself if they cannot be patched automatically. Otherwise you might think that they are patched and they are not.

Re: Comments from a console on Tour

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:47 pm
by AlanMartello
JohnGrimshaw wrote: Goto Syntax Problems
You are in Cue 10, and you decide to go back to a previous cue. Typing "[Cue] 9 [Goto]" leaves aspects of Cue 10 still active. Typing "[Goto] 9 [Enter]" works as expected. (same thing happens in the latest BETA version 10.3.41)
Thanks, added FS#983
JohnGrimshaw wrote: Release, release, release
It seems that the design of this console forces you to hit [Release] a whole lot!
Unless you're from the UK where you never release after a record since that would change the lights on the stage. Instead, you let the lights seamlessly be grabbed by a cue. There were many vocal critics early on that a console sole in Europe show NOT have a Release key. We also needed to add Undo so we incorporated both onto the same key. BTW, you can set "Release on Record" (a cue list option) if you're tired of hitting Release after each record.
JohnGrimshaw wrote: For people coming from the 300/500, when levels are changed on the fly during a show (and not recorded), hitting the [Go] button would re-assert control over the "captured" channels, resuming the show with plotted levels. This does not happen on the Palette. The only "elegant" way to release fixtures in time is to use the hidden feature to set the Cue faders to control the assert/release times. A bit too clumsy. SUGGESTION: There should be a way to "release selected fixtures" or "release ALL fixtures " in time, and/or with a [Go]. Perhaps with "Selected Fixtures" M-Keys?
- Make M5 "Release Selected with next [Go]", and M6 "Release Deltas with next [Go]. Hit either one and it applies to the currently selected cue list. After then, any time fixtures are selected/altered, that button flashes to warn the user they will be released with a [Go]. STICKY FUNCTION - stays active for that session.
- Make M7 "Release Selected in Time", and M8 "Release Deltas in Time"
The show resumes with plotted levels IF (1) you have Hold Delta Levels unchecked in Hardware Setup | Console AND (2) the cue you are running has a value recorded for that level. If you did a Goto Cue (in time), then that would force all values for attributes used in that cue list.

Added FS#984 and FS#985

I have no problem with your "Release Selected in Time" and "Release Deltas in Time" suggestion (I think they are already on the list). However, the "Release Selected with next [Go]" and "Release Deltas with next [Go]" could be troublesome as there is no indication that is what will happen ... and is there a way to cancel it?
JohnGrimshaw wrote: Looks being temperamental
There were times when the sub fader had to be moved several times before it would take control. No specific known way to replicate the problem.
There were some problems with this that we saw and fixed within the last month or two. If this is newer than that, then please try and notice if there is a pattern to reproduce.
JohnGrimshaw wrote: 1 to 1 Patch
Does not behave as expected in v10.3.1 (much better in 10.3.41). SUGGESTION: If patching fixtures 1 to 300, and 101 to 300 does not exist, it should CREATE those fixtures.
Is there a change you are suggesting from 10.4.2?
JohnGrimshaw wrote: Look Functions in Blind
There are known issues with this in 10.3.1 that are now fixed in 10.3.41, but one specific issue still remains. If a look is changed in BLIND while a sub is active, currently the new values are asserted the instant the sub handle is moved. SUGGESTION: Blind changes should be applied AFTER the sub is next at 0%.
Added FS #986
JohnGrimshaw wrote: Inhibitive looks
With the 300/500 series, when a submaster was an INHIBIT sub, it took precedence over (nearly?) everything. The default in the Palette has an INHIBIT only affecting the Cue Lists. In order to achieve the 300/500 type of control with the Palette, you have to set the "priority" of the sub to a low number. SUGGESTION: Default the column "priority" to be visible in the Looks pages, and when a Look is set to Inhibit, the priority is changed to 10, and a note is shown in the STATUS window to explain this change.
Added FS #987
JohnGrimshaw wrote: Odd Behavior - Labels
Here is a weird one for you. Labeled channels 1 thru 5 as "FOH". Came back after lunch, and the labels moved to become 9-15.
Please supply how to reproduce this if possible.
JohnGrimshaw wrote: REM Dim
A little awkward - an extra keystroke to get this function to operate as for the 300/500 series.
Is there a change you are suggesting from 10.4.2?
JohnGrimshaw wrote: Help Menu needs work
Not all [Help]+ [Button] variations seem to work, and the Help Menu is well out of date (I know this is largely fixed in the coming release. The 10.3.41 Beta has huge changes to this area)
Will pass along comments to the documentation team at Strand.

John - thanks to you (and your customers) for the great feedback!

Re: Comments from a console on Tour

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:28 pm
by JohnGrimshaw
Thanks for the updates Alan, and adding a few items to your list of things to do. Proactive responses like this make it very easy to promote your console!

Some answers to your question...
AlanMartello wrote:Unless you're from the UK where you never release after a record since that would change the lights on the stage. Instead, you let the lights seamlessly be grabbed by a cue.
and
AlanMartello wrote:However, the "Release Selected with next [Go]" and "Release Deltas with next [Go]" could be troublesome as there is no indication that is what will happen ... and is there a way to cancel it?
In my mind, I see the two M keys in question look like this:
- as per normal if not selected,
- an obvious background colour if active, but no lights to release
- something garish like flashing red if there are lights that are going to be released with the next Go

I am mindful of Florian's comments of wanting to be able to set the action for the console, and my preference to be able to change the default action on the fly. If there was a SHOW SETUP or CUELIST PROPERTIES option that defined:
- Release on GO action (none, Release Selected, Release Deltas)
- Release on GO active cuelist(s) - specify the cuelists affected

If these set the default action for the M Keys, this gives you what both Florian and I would like to see.

Re: Comments from a console on Tour

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:45 pm
by GaryDouglas
I've fixed the goto difference in CUE X GOTO. It was suppressing the release of attributes (IE keeping items not in the destination cue active)

This will be present in the next beta.

As for the others -- a bit tricky, but it's on my radar.

Re: Comments from a console on Tour

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:42 pm
by RobertBell
Alan Martello wrote:I have no problem with your "Release Selected in Time" and "Release Deltas in Time" suggestion (I think they are already on the list).
We've had this for years. SHIFT+REL is Release in Time (or Obsession Sneak). Remember you can set up the A/B or C/D faders to be IN and RELEASE time too. GMA has this for IN time only (their fader to the right of the right touch screen) and Hog called it Live Programmer, but used only one specified time for in and another for out)

Re: Comments from a console on Tour

Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:07 am
by JohnGrimshaw
Isn't SHIFT+REL the way you backtrack through too many pushes of the Release key?

Re: Comments from a console on Tour

Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:46 pm
by RobertBell
Sorry - after I posted this I thought I may have mis-typed it.

SHIFT + @ is Release in Time

Re: Comments from a console on Tour

Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:57 pm
by TaineGilliam
Still patiently waiting for SHIFT + ` otherwise known as ~ (tilde). :?

Taine

Re: Comments from a console on Tour

Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 7:44 pm
by RobHalliday
500 series would only change 'red' (selected/modified) channels on the next go press if you were in tracking-off mode. In tracking mode, channel levels would only change on the go push if the incoming cue had an instruction for that channel (unless you had loaded an out of sequence cue)

In other words, you could tweak a channel level and be sure it would stay there but go out in the correct cue, or nudge a moving light position and have it stay there without having to hold it (which has a risk of forgetting to unhold it later).

John, many of your functions would be addressed by the return of the 500-series RELOAD command (shift-load), which provided an easy way of getting everything back to the actual plotted state ofnthe incoming cue.

Rob.