patch by output command line

Questions on Palette and Light Palette operation and features
User avatar
mat
Posts: 448
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:05 pm
Primary Venue / Use: Professional Theatre
Where I Am: An opera in France
Location: Dijon;France
Contact:

patch by output command line

Post by mat » Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:20 am

Why command line: output 1 thru 100 patch to fixture 1 thru 100 in patch by output isn't possible?
In fact you can do it in patch by fixture,it appears to me to be more logical,am I missing something?
Mat-Opera de Dijon
France
lightpalette VL
palette VL 16
10.8.8

User avatar
RobertBell
Posts: 2421
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:11 pm
Primary Venue / Use: Other
Where I Am: Horizon Control Inc
Location: On the dark side just north of Toronto
Contact:

Re: patch by output command line

Post by RobertBell » Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:58 am

Just not done yet. It is logical, especially since the 500 never had a patch by fixture.
Robert Bell - Product Manager - Horizon Control Inc.

User avatar
gooze
Posts: 1760
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:42 pm
Location: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: patch by output command line

Post by gooze » Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:28 am

This is (since long) high on my priority list! This would really keep me in the same patch screen. (Patch by output that is). Now I have to switch back and forth.
Range patching as well as inversed range patching in patch by output would really help.
Also if you change patch mode, the screen is always back to the first dimmer. (A1) It doesn't remember where you were working before.

Request #2 is if it would be possible to have an extra label in the Channel Allocation folder, wich indicates the next available dmx channel, right underneath remaining channels.

Speaking of which:
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think it should be like this?

"Channel allocation" = "Fixture allocation"
Fixtures
Moving lights should be a subdivision, jump one level down (fixtures of wich ## moving lights)
"Authorized Channels" = "Authorized Fixtures"
"Used Channels" = "Used Outputs"
"Remaining Channels" = "Remaining Outputs"
Floriaan Ganzevoort - Lighting designer
THEATERMACHINE design. production. operations.

User avatar
RobertBell
Posts: 2421
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:11 pm
Primary Venue / Use: Other
Where I Am: Horizon Control Inc
Location: On the dark side just north of Toronto
Contact:

Re: patch by output command line

Post by RobertBell » Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:49 am

Warning: This is a very long explanation only for those who care.
Channels is an odd word. Marquee's ONLY reference to channels was to the thingies on the dongle you could consume. There was no 'Leading Channel List' or 'Channel Grid' or 'Selected Channels'. The numbered things in the Live display were Fixtures (some had more than one attribute, others didn't; those that did had a red triangle beside them).

Your suggestion of using output consumption is not correct. I can have a console authorized for 100 thingies, have a fixture grid with numbers 1 through 100 in it, then patch Fixture 1 to Outputs 1 thru 512. We don't care how many Outputs a Fixture gets patched to. Think of a Fixture (or channel if you want) used for a red cyc. There may be 12 or more dimmer involved, but that just consumes one thingie on the dongle.

Things we were trying to avoid:
  • Hog Style numbering where individual manufacturer's fixtures had unique numbers. This was 100% opposed to the concept of the Abstract Control Model
  • ETC or Compulite style SPOT vs. CHANNEL buttons (a light is a light)
  • In the world of ACN and Shownet and the proliferation of moving lights, the term Dimmer. We chose Output
  • The singular use of Channel referring to a complex moving light with many motors
We could have used the word Luminare or Instrument or Unit, but we chose Fixture.

Now to explain the economic model: We make money on selling authorizations. There is a market for desks that only can control 100 unique or parallel things. This is our low end desk. If you choose to control 512 dimmers with the thing called #1 in the grid - that is OK with us, but it very much limits your artistic abilities. If you do in fact have 512 dimmers, you should probably buy a desk that can run each of them individually just in case you have a rig that (one day) has 512 things that emit light. Then you can be very creative and control them all individually. In that case, you would expect to purchase something that can control more than 100 thingies.

When you throw moving lights into the rig (say Cyberlights because they use a nice even 20 DMX), we were not going to give you full control of 100 x 20= 2000 thingies. We have a different market for that. (Note: when counting thingies, we can't say motors because some motors are 16-bit and we can't say attributes because that makes no sense with the Abstract Control Model). To control 20 Cyberlights, you need a desk authorized for 2000 thingies. We chose to use the word Channel.

In history, Strand still likes the word Channel, where some channels have attributes and others don't. All have intensity and some additionally have attributes. With the Abstract Control Model, Intensity is also an attribute, so this confuses things a bit. In my mind the word Fixture does not imply singular control. The word Channel, as it would appear in the grid, does. This is why ‘I’ avoid the word channel when referring to things in the grid.

As so far as the use of the word Channel in the patch summary (the thingies on the dongle), think of them NOT as DMX slots, but as handles. If you had a manual desk and you wanted to control a Cyberlight, you would need 20 handles. If you wanted to control the red cyc, you only need one handle. If you want to control the Window Gobo special, you need one handle. If you want to control a video server, you need a lot more handles.
Robert Bell - Product Manager - Horizon Control Inc.

User avatar
RobertBell
Posts: 2421
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:11 pm
Primary Venue / Use: Other
Where I Am: Horizon Control Inc
Location: On the dark side just north of Toronto
Contact:

Re: patch by output command line

Post by RobertBell » Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:57 am

mat wrote:Why command line: output 1 thru 100 patch to fixture 1 thru 100 in patch by output isn't possible?
In fact you can do it in patch by fixture,it appears to me to be more logical,am I missing something?
:added: FS546
Robert Bell - Product Manager - Horizon Control Inc.

User avatar
AmberTomlin
Posts: 160
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:13 pm
Primary Venue / Use: Trade Shows
Where I Am: London, UK
Location: Strand Lighting Europe

Re: patch by output command line

Post by AmberTomlin » Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:06 am

Thanks for taking the time to put your explanation here Rob. It's given me some more insight into explaining our method, as it can be challenging at times!

Much Appreciated!! :D
Amber Tomlin

Key Account Manager - UK
Philips Entertainment

User avatar
gooze
Posts: 1760
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:42 pm
Location: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: patch by output command line

Post by gooze » Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:24 am

Thanks for the very thorough explanation. I think Bill Richards should copy/paste this into his manual (is he still busy with that?).

The two other requests are still valid though: reversed range patching in patch by output and the next available free dmx-adress/channel/thingy :roll:
Floriaan Ganzevoort - Lighting designer
THEATERMACHINE design. production. operations.

User avatar
BobbyHarrell
Posts: 2278
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 10:51 am
Location: Livingston, NJ
Contact:

Re: patch by output command line

Post by BobbyHarrell » Sat Mar 08, 2008 7:38 am

Something else for everyone to remember, we are creating truly unified control. This console has more balanced control between the conventional console world an the moving light console world than any other product on the market. This means that we are merging two worlds, two ideologies of console families, two worlds of programmers.

I have found in the American market that many conventional lighting folks think of controlling the light as a channel where the moving light programmers refer to them as fixtures. You can also drill down further to compartmentalize the conventional folks into the ETC camp and the Strand camp since the ETC camp did MLs on Expressions and Obsessions and they all took up a channel for each ML parameter and the Strand world treated a unit as a channel and you had attributes for parameters.

We are trying to keep a balance, not only between the ML world and the conventional world but between ideologies too.

We also have a strong loyality to our 500 series users so we want to keep that in mind as well.
Bobby Harrell - Product Specialist
Philips Entertainment - Strand Lighting

RobHalliday
Posts: 286
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 1:45 pm
Location: London, UK (mainly)
Contact:

Re: patch by output command line

Post by RobHalliday » Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:09 am

If intensity is in the Abstract Control Model, why doesn't it say '1@10,000lumens'....?

Sort of semi- ;-)


Also, since the above explanation makes complete sense, why not call the thing on the dongles 'handles'?

Rob.

User avatar
BobbyHarrell
Posts: 2278
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 10:51 am
Location: Livingston, NJ
Contact:

Re: patch by output command line

Post by BobbyHarrell » Sun Mar 09, 2008 2:45 pm

...or control channels?
Bobby Harrell - Product Specialist
Philips Entertainment - Strand Lighting

Post Reply